Author Topic: Cultural Errat  (Read 2481 times)

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Cultural Errat
« on: October 11, 2021, 01:31:11 pm »

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Digwe Must

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2021, 11:03:29 am »
 Well, I don't know where the hell to put this.  I think it is tangentially relevant to a couple of different ongoing topics - so one of the wizards can certainly move it wherever you think it might do the most good - if you find it interesting.  If not - forget I said anything.  My wife always does.

I had to copy the article or you couldn't read it without a subscription.  Near the end it references a survey that shows a phenomenal number of Americans who want to break up the union.

Some interesting stuff about "epistemic hubris".

The New York Times   October 6, 2021

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/06/opinion/trump-voters-2020-election.html



Trump True Believers Have Their Reasons

By Thomas B. Edsall

Just who believes the claim that Donald Trump won in 2020 and that the election was stolen from him? Who are these tens of millions of Americans, and what draws them into this web of delusion?

Three sources provided The Times with survey data: the University of Massachusetts-Amherst Poll, P.R.R.I. (the Public Religion Research Institute) and Reuters-Ipsos. With minor exceptions, the data from all three polls is similar.

Alexander Theodoridis, a political scientist at the University of Massachusetts, summed it up:

About 35 percent of Americans believed in April that Biden’s victory was illegitimate, with another 6 percent saying they are not sure. What can we say about the Americans who do not think Biden’s victory was legitimate? Compared to the overall voting-age population, they are disproportionately white, Republican, older, less educated, more conservative and more religious (particularly more Protestant and more likely to describe themselves as born again).

P.R.R.I. also tested agreement or disagreement with a view that drives replacement theory — “Immigrants are invading our country and replacing our cultural and ethnic background” — and found that 60 percent of Republicans agreed, as do 55 percent of conservatives.

The Reuters/Ipsos data showed that among white Republicans, those without college degrees were far more likely to agree “that the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump,” at 69 percent, than white Republicans with college degrees, at a still astonishing 51 percent. The same survey data showed that the level of this belief remained consistently strong (over 60 percent) among Republicans of all ages living in rural, suburban or urban areas.

With that data in mind, let’s explore some of the forces guiding these developments.

In their September 2021 paper “Exposure to Authoritarian Values Leads to Lower Positive Affect, Higher Negative Affect, and Higher Meaning in Life,” seven scholars — Jake Womick, John Eckelkamp, Sam Luzzo, Sarah J. Ward, S. Glenn Baker, Alison Salamun and Laura A. King — write:

Right-wing authoritarianism played a significant role in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. In subsequent years, there have been numerous “alt-right” demonstrations in the U.S., including the 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville that culminated in a fatal car attack, and the 2021 Capitol Insurrection. In the U.S., between 2016 and 2017 the number of attacks by right-wing organizations quadrupled, outnumbering attacks by Islamic extremist groups, constituting 66 percent of all attacks and plots in the U.S. in 2019 and over 90 percent in 2020.

How does authoritarianism relate to immigration? Womick provided some insight in an email:

Social dominance orientation is a variable that refers to the preference for society to be structured by group-based hierarchies. It’s comprised of two components: group-based dominance and anti-egalitarianism. Group-based dominance refers to the preference for these hierarchies and the use of force/aggression to maintain them. Anti-egalitarianism refers to maintaining these sorts of hierarchies through other means, such as through systems, legislation, etc.

Womick notes that his own study of the 2016 primaries showed that Trump voters were unique compared to supporters of other Republicans in the strength of their

group-based dominance. I think group-based dominance as the distinguishing factor of this group is highly consistent with what happened at the Capitol. These individuals likely felt that the Trump administration was serving to maintain group-based hierarchies in society from which they felt they benefited. They may have perceived the 2020 election outcome as a threat to that structure. As a result, they turned to aggression in an attempt to affect our political structures in service of the maintenance of those group-based hierarchies.

In their paper, Womick and his co-authors ask:

What explains the appeal of authoritarian values? What problem do these values solve for the people who embrace them? The presentation of authoritarian values must have a positive influence on something that is valuable to people.

Their answer is twofold:

Authoritarian messages influence people on two separable levels, the affective level, lowering positive and enhancing negative affect. and the existential level, enhancing meaning in life.

They describe negative affect as “feeling sad, worried or enraged.” Definitions of “meaning in life,” they write,

include at least three components: significance, the feeling that one’s life and contributions matter to society; purpose, having one’s life driven by the pursuit of valued goals; and coherence or comprehensibility, the perception that one’s life makes sense.

In a separate paper, “The Existential Function of Right‐Wing Authoritarianism,” Womick, Ward and King, joined by Samantha J. Heintzelman and Brendon Woody, provide more detail:

It may seem ironic that authoritarianism, a belief system that entails sacrifice of personal freedom to a strong leader, would influence the experience of meaning in life through its promotion of feelings of personal significance. Yet right-wing authoritarianism does provide a person with a place in the world, as a loyal follower of a strong leader. In addition, compared to purpose and coherence, knowing with great certainty that one’s life has mattered in a lasting way may be challenging. Handing this challenge over to a strong leader and investment in societal conventions might allow a person to gain a sense of symbolic or vicarious significance.

From another vantage point, Womick and his co-authors continue,

perceptions of insignificance may lead individuals to endorse relatively extreme beliefs, such as authoritarianism, and to follow authoritarian leaders as a way to gain a sense that their lives and their contributions matter.

In the authors’ view, right-wing authoritarianism,

despite its negative social implications, serves an existential meaning function. This existential function is primarily about facilitating the sense that one’s life matters. This existential buffering function is primarily about allowing individuals to maintain a sense that they matter during difficult experiences.

In his email, Womick expanded on his work: “The idea is that perceptions of insignificance can drive a process of seeking out groups, endorsing their ideologies and engaging in behaviors consistent with these.”

These ideologies, Womick continued,

should eventually promote a sense of significance (as insignificance is what drove the person to endorse the ideology in the first place). Endorsing right-wing authoritarianism relates to higher meaning in life, and exposing people to authoritarian values causally enhances meaning.

In “Race and Authoritarianism in American Politics,” Christopher Sebastian Parker and Christopher C. Towler, political scientists at the University of Washington and Sacramento State, make a parallel argument:

Confining the definition of authoritarianism to regime rule, however, leaves little room for a discussion of more contemporary authoritarianism at the micro level. This review shifts focus to an assessment of political psychology’s concept of authoritarianism and how it ultimately drives racism. Ultimately, we believe a tangible connection exists between racism and authoritarianism.

Taking a distinct but complementary approach, David C. Barker, Morgan Marietta and Ryan DeTamble, all political scientists, argue in “Intellectualism, Anti-Intellectualism, and Epistemic Hubris in Red and Blue America” that epistemic hubris — the expression of unwarranted factual certitude — is prevalent, bipartisan and associated with both intellectualism (an identity marked by ruminative habits and learning for its own sake) and anti-intellectualism (negative affect toward intellectuals and the intellectual establishment).

The division between intellectualism and anti-intellectualism, they write, is distinctly partisan: intellectuals are disproportionately Democratic, whereas anti-intellectuals are disproportionately Republican. By implication, we suggest that both the intellectualism of blue America and the anti-intellectualism of red America contribute to the intemperance and intransigence that characterize civil society in the United States.

In addition, according to Barker, Marietta and DeTamble, “The growing intellectualism of blue America and anti-intellectualism of red America, respectively, may partially explain the tendency by both to view the other as some blend of dense, duped and dishonest.”

In an email, Marietta wrote:

The evidence is clear that the hubris driven by intellectual identity and the hubris driven by anti-intellectual affect lower our willingness to compromise with those who seem to lack character and honesty. I suspect the divide in perceptions, but unanimity in hubris, feeds the growing belief that democracy is failing and hence anti-democratic or illiberal policies are justified.

Marietta reports that he and his colleagues

conducted a series of experiments to see what happens when ordinary citizens are faced with others who hold contrary perceptions of reality about things like climate change or racism or the effects of immigration. The results are not pretty.

Once they realize that the perceptions of other people are “different from their own,” Marietta continued,

Americans are far less likely to want to be around them in the workplace and are far more likely to conclude that they are stupid or dishonest. These inclinations are symmetrical, with liberals rejecting conservatives as much (or sometimes more) than conservatives reject liberals. The disdain born of intellectual identity seems to mirror the disdain arising from anti-intellectual affect.

I asked Barker about the role of hubris in contemporary polarization, and he wrote back:

The populist right hates the intellectual left because they hate being condescended to, they hate what they perceive as their hypersensitivity and they hate what they view as an anti-American level of femininity (which is for whatever reason associated with intellectualism).

At the same time, Barker continued, the intellectual left really does see the G.O.P. as a bunch of deplorable rubes. They absolutely feel superior to them, and they reveal it constantly on Twitter and elsewhere — further riling up the “deplorables.”

Put another way. Barker wrote,

The populist/anti-intellectual right absolutely believe that the intellectuals are not only out of touch but are also ungodly and sneaky and therefore think they must be stopped before they ruin America. Meanwhile, the intellectual left really do believe the Trumpers are racist, sexist, homophobic (and so on) authoritarians who can’t spell and are going to destroy the country if they are not stopped.

What is a critical factor in the development of hubris? Moral conviction, the authors reply:

         “The most morally committed citizens are also the most epistemically hubristic citizens”; that is, they are most inclined “to express absolute certainty regarding the truth or falsehood” of claims “for which the hard evidence is unclear or contradictory.”

Moral conviction plays a key role in the work of Clifford Workman, a postdoctoral fellow at the Penn Center for Neuroaesthetics at the University of Pennsylvania. Workman, Keith J. Yoder and Jean Decety, write in “The Dark Side of Morality — Neural Mechanisms Underpinning Moral Convictions and Support for Violence” that “people are motivated by shared social values that, when held with moral conviction, can serve as compelling mandates capable of facilitating support for ideological violence.”

Using M.R.I. brain scans, the authors “examined this dark side of morality by identifying specific cognitive and neural mechanisms associated with beliefs about the appropriateness of sociopolitical violence” to determine “the extent to which the engagement of these mechanisms was predicted by moral convictions.”

Their conclusion: “Moral conviction about sociopolitical issues serves to increase their subjective value, overriding natural aversion to interpersonal harm.”

In a striking passage, Workman, Yoder and Decety argue:

While violence is often described as antithetical to sociality, it can be motivated by moral values with the ultimate goal of regulating social relationships. In fact, most violence in the world appears to be rooted in conflict between moral values. Across cultures and history, violence has been used with the intention to sustain order and can be expressed in war, torture, genocide and homicide.

What, then, Workman and his co-authors ask, “separates accepting ‘deserved’ vigilantism from others and justifying any behavior — rioting, warfare — as means to morally desirable ends?”

Their answer is disconcerting:

People who bomb family-planning clinics and those who violently oppose war (e.g., the Weathermen’s protests of the Vietnam War) may have different sociopolitical ideologies, but both are motivated by deep moral convictions.

The authors propose two theories to account for this:

Moral conviction may function by altering the decision-making calculus through the subordination of social prohibitions against violence, thereby requiring less top-down inhibition. This hypothesis holds that moral conviction facilitates support for ideological violence by increasing commitments to a “greater good” even at the expense of others. An alternative hypothesis is that moral conviction increases the subjective value of certain actions, where violence in service of those convictions is underpinned by judgments about one’s moral responsibilities to sociopolitical causes.

In a 2018 paper, “A Multilevel Social Neuroscience Perspective on Radicalization and Terrorism,” Decety, Workman and Robert Pape ask, “Why are some people capable of sympathizing with and/or committing acts of political violence, such as attacks aimed at innocent targets?”

For starters, they note:

Disturbing as it may be, individuals who become radicalized and involve themselves with terrorist organizations are, by and large, ordinary people. These individuals have typically functioning brains; they are not mad but are fanatics. Most are not psychopaths and, with the exception of lone wolf terrorists, are not especially likely to have psychiatric diagnoses.

Instead, Decety, Pape and Workman contend:

People who are otherwise psychologically typical may develop values and strong emotional ties to narratives and causes and become radicalized. Many individuals who sympathize with and even join terrorist organizations are educated and seemingly rational.

This immediately raises another question: “Are there characteristics that distinguish individuals who merely hold extreme views from those who act on those views by engaging in ideologically motivated violence?”

Decety, Pape and Workman cite a range of findings:

From political psychology:

Individuals who are cognitively inflexible and intolerant of ambiguity may become captive audiences for ideological, political or religious extremists whose simplistic worldviews gloss over nuance. Indeed, cognitive inflexibility has been positively associated with authoritarian aggression, racism and ethnocentrism.

From neuroscience:

The radicalism dimension, which included items such as “People should use violence to pursue political goals,” was related to increased activation of the ventral striatum and posterior cingulate.

From the study of moral values:

Violations of sacred, moral values may trigger disgust and/or anger responses that may set the stage for ideologically motivated violence.

The tools of political science, neuroscience, evolutionary theory, psychology, cognitive science and sociology are all necessary to understand the ongoing upheaval in politics — not just in America but globally.

On Sept. 30, for example, the University of Virginia Center for Politics and Project Home Fire released a survey showing unexpectedly large percentages of voters agreeing with this statement: “The situation in America is such that I would favor states seceding from the union to form their own separate country.”

Among Trump voters, 52 percent agreed, with 25 percent in strong agreement; among Biden voters, 41 percent agreed, 18 percent strongly.

There are credible reasons to find this alarming.

By Thomas B. Edsall

Mr. Edsall contributes a weekly column from Washington, D.C., on politics, demographics and inequality.

=============================================

 

K-Dog

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2021, 04:50:45 pm »
This looks like a good place for these:





I agree with the **** -up electronic meat monkey brain riding the back of a tiger comparison.

COVID denialism which Rebecca talks about in the first video makes it crystal clear.  People are walking around with unlicensed brains.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 04:52:35 pm by K-Dog »

RE

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2021, 06:26:23 pm »

I agree with the **** -up electronic meat monkey brain riding the back of a tiger comparison.

COVID denialism which Rebecca talks about in the first video makes it crystal clear.  People are walking around with unlicensed brains.

I think you need to go back to why about ALL cultures, civilized or not believe in a God or Gods.  It's because Homo Saps always look for an explanation for everything, including things which are unexplainable.

How did life begin? WHY did life begin?  What is the purpose of living?  What came before the Big Bang?  Where did the stuff that went Bang come from?  Why does time only move forward?  Why is the Speed of Light fixed at 186,000 mps?  Why are so many people Jackasses?

Science purports to answer many questions, but is really bad at answering philosophical questions people are actually concerned about.  God fills in the gap for anything you cannot explain otherwise.

Since the invention of writing, stories passed down orally from the dawn of sentience were codified and written into books, notably here the Bible's Old Testament being one of the first, if not the first.  If you go back just a couple of hundred years before radio and television, reading stories out of the Bible was the only nightly entertainment for the family.  They could only afford one book, books were expensive.  Church is like a big book club, where everyone meets on Sunday to discuss the one book everyone owns.

It's really only since radio and television that Atheism has become popular at all.  With that, people learned about other religions besides their own, discovering differences and flaws in all of them.  Which one to believe, which one is true?  Some people believe none are true, we call them Atheists.  Or sometime Agnostic if they won't commit one way or the other and sit the fence saying they don't know.

The easiest thing to do is to simply accept the explanations of the religion you grew up with.  That is what most people do.  Most people don't have time or energy to ponder on philosophical questions.  They are too busy worrying about how to pay the bills.

RE

K-Dog

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2021, 09:50:31 pm »
Quote
If you go back just a couple of hundred years before radio and television, reading stories out of the Bible was the only nightly entertainment for the family.  They could only afford one book, books were expensive.  Church is like a big book club, where everyone meets on Sunday to discuss the one book everyone owns.

I was 12 years old and could not hang with god smiting a whole town because of a few bad apples.  God no better than the schoolyard bully.  God's **** up. I crawled under a table and would not come out.

Would I have had the same feelings if I was born into a 15th century village.  Certainly not.  By 15 I'd be doing my share of smiting.  No problemo.

But overall the situation has degraded.  Ignorance is less, but this happiness is canceled by how much more there is to be ignorant about.  More than cancelled.  The sea of potential ignorance is vast.  Basic rules about how the world works are confused in a new tower of Babel.  Technology has abstracted everyone from reality.

Human knowledge is working out the same way the reindeer on Mathews Island worked out.



There are no reindeer there now.  And we are at peak data.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 10:08:01 pm by K-Dog »

RE

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2021, 12:41:45 am »
Well, here we are concerned with Ignorance rather than the Existence of God.  Because many Theists are Ignorant does not mean many Atheists are not Ignorant.  Many Atheists are firm believers that Science can answer all questions, and thus will find a solution to the current Shytstorm we are immersed in.  If you polled Atheists,  you probably would find Anti-Vaxxers among them.  Maybe for different reasons than the Theists, but still against getting Vaxxed, especially forced vaxxing.  Does not getting vaxxed automatically make you stupid?

To try to tie Ignorance to the Existence or non-Existence of God, you have to ask the questions:  If God Exists, why did he make most people Stupid?  If God does not Exist, why did people evolve to be so Stupid?  Neither Religion or Science can answer these questions.

If the God of the Old Testament exists, this could all be a part of the Master Plan.  That God really liked to Smite People, now we will get the biggest Smite of all time.  The Mother of all Smites!  If there is no God, you can write this off to Entropy and Dissipative Systems.  Either way, you end up with a whole lot of Dead People.

RE

Digwe Must

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2021, 07:02:19 am »
Well, here we are concerned with Ignorance rather than the Existence of God.  Because many Theists are Ignorant does not mean many Atheists are not Ignorant.  Many Atheists are firm believers that Science can answer all questions, and thus will find a solution to the current Shytstorm we are immersed in.  If you polled Atheists,  you probably would find Anti-Vaxxers among them.  Maybe for different reasons than the Theists, but still against getting Vaxxed, especially forced vaxxing.  Does not getting vaxxed automatically make you stupid?

To try to tie Ignorance to the Existence or non-Existence of God, you have to ask the questions:  If God Exists, why did he make most people Stupid?  If God does not Exist, why did people evolve to be so Stupid?  Neither Religion or Science can answer these questions.
If the God of the Old Testament exists, this could all be a part of the Master Plan.  That God really liked to Smite People, now we will get the biggest Smite of all time.  The Mother of all Smites!  If there is no God, you can write this off to Entropy and Dissipative Systems.  Either way, you end up with a whole lot of Dead People.

RE


“When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.”
-- Abraham Lincoln

“A life is either all spiritual or not spiritual at all. No man can serve two masters. Your life is shaped by the end you live for. You are made in the image of what you desire.”
-- Thomas Merton

“For me, the different religions are beautiful flowers from the same garden, or they are branches of the same majestic tree. Therefore, they are equally true, though being received and interpreted through human instruments equally imperfect.”
-- Mahatma Gandhi

I

Digwe Must

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2021, 07:11:24 am »
Forgot to include Abigail.

“To be good, and do good, is the whole duty of man comprised in a few words.”
-- Abigail Adams

RE

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2021, 07:43:20 am »
Forgot to include Abigail.

“To be good, and do good, is the whole duty of man comprised in a few words.”
-- Abigail Adams

What is doing good?  To stop burning FFs to hopefully slow climate change, or to keep burning them so people don't die of starvation in cold dark homes?

RE

Digwe Must

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2021, 02:35:01 pm »
Forgot to include Abigail.

“To be good, and do good, is the whole duty of man comprised in a few words.”
-- Abigail Adams

What is doing good?  To stop burning FFs to hopefully slow climate change, or to keep burning them so people don't die of starvation in cold dark homes?

RE

Ahhh... Now we get to the meat of it.  (no pun intended) 

That is a very important question and one that effects us all.  Glad you went there. I can give you my opinion , but I really am looking forward to getting other takes on a critical subject.

I'm going to say something that sounds like a cop-out platitude - but it ain't:  That depends.

We are all in different circumstances, obviously.  Our individual ability to have an impact varies.  As you well know, for a sizable fraction of the world's population it's day to day.  This is not even an issue for debate. More access to more energy is is a better chance for survival, or even a little surplus, for so many.  On a personal level, I can't look at a kid in a bleak apartment in Warsaw (or anydamnwhere) and declare that she should be cold and hungry for any reason.  No way.  That could be my grandkid.  The elite who would accept this drive to the conferences in armored limos.  They may need them.

Of course, I get the argument against FF use. I've listened to many biologists say basically it's pay me now or pay me later.  Cut it now and cause suffering or ride this horse until it dies and then endure much more suffering.  I also know that estimates are out there that without natural gas for fertilizer the current ag system would support about 4 billion people. 

I think that most of us can make more difference in our personal lives than we can trying to have an effect on broad policy.  No politician or national leader that I am aware of will tell their people they should be hungry so that we cut emissions.  I believe it is more likely that at some point fossil fuel production will be mandated regardless of the economics and then largely allocated to agriculture.  That is, while centralized states hold together.  I think they can pass all the emission goals and policies they want, but when the torches and pitchforks come out they'll start shoveling the last of the coal.


I believe that what we do on a personal level is very important.  We aren't going to save the whole shebang - not even close - but having a lower energy footprint in your own life helps you and yours anticipate and prepare for what is ahead.  It gets you thinkin'.  And besides:

Just as ripples spread out when a single pebble is dropped into water, the actions of individuals can have far-reaching effects.

Dalai Lama



Over the last 20 years or so we've done much to cut our own use of fossil fuel.  I estimate we use about 30% of what we used in 2000.  We grow much of our own food and are trying to increase that.  We drive much less.  We heat with wood.  This is a benefit because we use wood that would eventually be consumed in wildfire if we didn't use it.  And we make biochar and return it to the soil where the carbon sits for a long time. We're still on the electric grid - but it's hydro generated.  (goodbye salmon)

"It’s the action, not the fruit of the action, that’s important. You have to do the right thing. It may not be in your power, may not be in your time, that there’ll be any fruit. But that doesn’t mean you stop doing the right thing. You may never know what results come from your action. But if you do nothing, there will be no result." - Gandhi

Must feed sheep.




RE

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2021, 08:06:56 pm »
That's a practical answer, but it is, yes, a cop out.

What you are faced with here is a kind of global Sophie's Choice.  You are drowning with 2 kids.  You can only save 1, if you try to save both, all 3 of you will drown.  So you pick one to save, and let the other one go.  This is very good for you and the saved one, very bad for the dead one.

Not a lot different for distributing out the coal or NG.  If we ship coal from here on the Last Great Frontier to China to keep their lights on, we can't ship it to India to do the same for them.  We only can mine the coal so fast, and there are a limited number of ships to load it onto.  Fortunately of course we don't need the coal, because we have plenty of NG we cannot ship anywhere because we don't have a plant to liquify the NG and no terminal to pump it onto ships.  Both are unlikely to be built anytime soon.

So, you can "do good" for somebody if you have a surplus, but the good you do for them is bad for somebody else.  Who do you choose?  Which child will you save?

Abigail Adams credo is simplistic, and does not address the problem of how you can do good when there just is not enough around to do good for everyone.  Back in Biblical times, there are stories of people who ate their children to avoid starvation themselves.  Is that good or bad?  In a resource depleted economy that is contracting, everybody's life comes at the expense of someone else who dies.  Is it good to sacrifice your own life so someone else might live?  If it is your own child, I think many (though not all) people would do that.  But how many would give their own life to save a starving child in Afghanistan?

Cutting your own energy footprint if you are in surplus is a good thing, and you can more or less go to the Great Beyond with a clear conscience that you tried to do...something. What you do though will never be enough, short of course of joining the Voluntary Extinction  Movement, whose Motto is, "Save the Pllanet.  Kill Yourself." lol.

Would Abigail Adams have killed herself to do good?

RE

K-Dog

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2021, 09:09:20 pm »

I agree with the **** -up electronic meat monkey brain riding the back of a tiger comparison.

COVID denialism which Rebecca talks about in the first video makes it crystal clear.  People are walking around with unlicensed brains.

I think you need to go back to why about ALL cultures, civilized or not believe in a God or Gods.

RE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory

Probably explains incessant doom mongering as well.

I have exchanged emails with Sheldon Solomon.

https://www.youtube.com/user/ernestbecker/about

Our need to avoid death is built in.  I am totally on board with terror management theory.  I was influential in getting an interview for Sheldon.

Awareness of death engenders debilitating terror “managed” by the development and maintenance of worldviews.  Awareness of death makes it difficult for the common person to understand doom.  They won't think about it and you can't make them.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 09:18:32 pm by K-Dog »

Phil Potts

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2021, 12:41:08 am »
That's a practical answer, but it is, yes, a cop out.

What you are faced with here is a kind of global Sophie's Choice.  You are drowning with 2 kids.  You can only save 1, if you try to save both, all 3 of you will drown.  So you pick one to save, and let the other one go.  This is very good for you and the saved one, very bad for the dead one.

Not a lot different for distributing out the coal or NG.  If we ship coal from here on the Last Great Frontier to China to keep their lights on, we can't ship it to India to do the same for them.  We only can mine the coal so fast, and there are a limited number of ships to load it onto.  Fortunately of course we don't need the coal, because we have plenty of NG we cannot ship anywhere because we don't have a plant to liquify the NG and no terminal to pump it onto ships.  Both are unlikely to be built anytime soon.

So, you can "do good" for somebody if you have a surplus, but the good you do for them is bad for somebody else.  Who do you choose?  Which child will you save?

Abigail Adams credo is simplistic, and does not address the problem of how you can do good when there just is not enough around to do good for everyone.  Back in Biblical times, there are stories of people who ate their children to avoid starvation themselves.  Is that good or bad?  In a resource depleted economy that is contracting, everybody's life comes at the expense of someone else who dies.  Is it good to sacrifice your own life so someone else might live?  If it is your own child, I think many (though not all) people would do that.  But how many would give their own life to save a starving child in Afghanistan?

Cutting your own energy footprint if you are in surplus is a good thing, and you can more or less go to the Great Beyond with a clear conscience that you tried to do...something. What you do though will never be enough, short of course of joining the Voluntary Extinction  Movement, whose Motto is, "Save the Pllanet.  Kill Yourself." lol.

Would Abigail Adams have killed herself to do good?

RE

The choice has been made by the UN, G20, Paris agreement.  Carboneutral for middle age median, low fertility, gas guzzling, thermostat setting, SUV driving without passengers, empty rooms dwelling, mRNA injecting western world by 2030.

Teen or twenties median, emigrant exporting, cheap manufacturing, lightly polluting per capita, traditional vaccine taking, 'emerging economies' by 2060. This probably means exporting fossil fuels and hoping windmills do the job domestically. If bills get too high to pay, sit on the porch shirtless in summer and wear a sheepskin onesie in winter. Not inside out like this guy.

https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/kremlin-says-putin-will-not-fly-glasgow-cop26-2021-10-20/

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« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 12:45:34 am by Phil Potts »

RE

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Here's a nice upbeat story to relieve your Doom Gloominess for the day. :)

Hundreds of kids and their families are riding a bicycle bus to school in Barcelona

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/22/1047341052/barcelona-bicibus-kids-parents-bike-ride-to-school

Up here on the last great frontier, we can do bikes in the summer, cross country skis in the winter!  Also dogsled buses for the preschoolers!

RE

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Re: Cultural Errat
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2021, 10:04:26 am »
That's a practical answer, but it is, yes, a cop out.

What you are faced with here is a kind of global Sophie's Choice. 

I disagree, not surprisingly.  My point is that we have much more power over the individual choices we make.  I can't impact shipping Australian coal to China.  I can't impact the growing tensions in the region.  The people who make these decisions don't listen to me.  Those who are committed to conflict on an international scale don't listen to me - or you.  They move piles of wealth from one spot to another without any thought for the poor and desperate, mine all the resources out from under native people, prepare for war that will decimate the poor first and have no thought or care for the future.  We know how the movie ends. 

For me, I can help many more people by putting my efforts into learning and teaching alternative ways for people to manage the food, water, shelter and security challenges that they face.  This where I can do the most good, as I see it.  We are in the lower energy future that we've been saying is on the way.  However, as we descend I still expect those in power to burn every BTU they can scrape up - so they stay in power as long as possible.  I can't do anything about that or who gets the coal.


 "Cutting your own energy footprint if you are in surplus is a good thing, and you can more or less go to the Great Beyond with a clear conscience that you tried to do...something. What you do though will never be enough..."

As you know well, this isn't about me or you.  We're damn near done.  It's about what we leave behind for those who follow. I work much harder at all this than I should.  I'd rather go fishin' once in a while.   But, apparently I'm not done yet.  It sure isn't about upping my personal Good Guy score. I'm not telling anyone else how they should deal with collapse or the conundrum we find ourselves in.  You "do good" as you see it.  That's not my call.  As to the fact that what I do will never be enough, sorry but that is no reason not to do it.  I quote RE: "Save as many as you can."

So, you can "do good" for somebody if you have a surplus, but the good you do for them is bad for somebody else.   Abigail Adams credo is simplistic, and does not address the problem of how you can do good when there just is not enough around to do good for everyone.   Would Abigail Adams have killed herself to do good?


Of course Abigail's quote is simplistic.  Yankee wisdom, solid, severe and sparse.  As to her character, well she risked it all, her own life and her family's for what she thought was a just cause bigger than her.  To try and be good and do good doesn't mean you can help everyone or keep the ship from sinking.
RE there are many good folks who do what they can for others even though they don't have a surplus at all.  Those people humble me every day.

As it happens, I know a few men who did risk their lives to save injured and desperate kids in Afghanistan. They did it all the time.

   
Sorry I still can't figure out the quote doo-dad.