Author Topic: Dieoff Errata (Read 4890 times)

RE · « **Reply #15 on:** October 27, 2021, 10:24:46 pm »

https://www.foxnews.com/world/north-korea-starving-citizens-food-shortages-kim-jong-un

Put NK at the head of the line for the Famine Horseman. Starving people there have been advised by Da Goobermint to "Eat Less". At least this is more honest than "Let them eat cake".

Starvation stories don't make the news much anymore. Yemen is the only other one I can think of in recent years. There used to be lots of stories about starvation in Africa. We solved that problem though! Didn't we?

"Depopulation" stories also becoming more prevalent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/population-growth-contraction-china-india-b1929094.html

The MSM doesn't call it "dieoff". "depopulation" is like "Degrowth", more newspeak. It's more neutral and less worrisome. A Rose by any other name is still a Rose though. When stories like these start appearing by the dozens, you know the trend is already well underway.

How was the Green Ag Revolution engineered? Fertilizer and pesticides, made fro NG & Oil. Fertilizer, primarily Ammonium Nitrate is made from NG utilizing the Haber Process developed for making Bombs. After WWII, many bomb factories started producing fertilizer.

Now NG has skyrocketed in price, and fertilizer manufacturers compete for the same supply as electricity suppliers and people heating their homes. Consequently, food will become increasingly expensive and harder to come by. Not a huge problem here yet, this will obviously hit the 3rd World countries first. As long as it is THEM though and not US, "What, me Worry?" lol.

Populations weakened by hunger become more susceptible to disease, so the "depopulation" problem increases exponentially. Economic problems multiply along the way down. Supply chains fail, insufficient workers to drive the trucks, pick the lettuce, etc.

How long before starvation becomes a real issue for the FSoA? Hard to say, but all the leading indicators are already happening.

Even Unicorn shitting Fusion Skittles won't solve this problem. Star Trek Food Replicators powered by Matter-Anti-Matter engines have yet to be invented, even by Elon Musk. A dwindling Food Supply is inevitable, and the population will dwindle with it. Just like the Reindeer on SMI.

RE

K-Dog · « **Reply #16 on:** October 27, 2021, 10:48:45 pm »

More Food - More People

It wasn't until the 1950's, after the first and second world wars, that the Haber process really started to affect farming. Ammonia stocks, diverted in wartime to make bombs and bullets, started being used to produce the synthetic nitrogen fertilizers used everywhere today.

Increased food production has allowed the human population to swell to its current almost 7 billion size *. Estimates are that a third of the earth's human population is fed thanks to the Haber process. Many people believe that to stop or limit the use of synthetic fertilizers would lead to mass starvation.

* If the article is 10 years old I don't see it matters.

Haber Process is an Energy Glutton

Given that the Haber process requires temperatures of 400 - 550C and pressures of 200 - 300 atmospheres it's not surprising that it uses a lot of energy. Manufacture of nitrogen fertilizers uses about 5% of the world's natural gas production, equivalent to 1-2% of the world's annual energy consumption.

While natural gas is among the more plentiful fossil fuels, this level of use is not sustainable in the long term. As well, as oil reserves worldwide dwindle, prices will rise putting fertilizers some farmers have come to depend on out of reach for the poor.

https://www.the-compost-gardener.com/haber-process.html

K-Dog · « **Reply #17 on:** October 29, 2021, 06:06:15 pm »

Farmin

I read three centimeters of topsoil takes a thousand years to build up.

WTF, I have a patch of glacial till on the east side of the house. Fifty years ago, this ground lay buried 20 feet under. Nothing but sand and rock. The till was exposed when second growth forest was cleared, and the land was graded. I turned the top 18 inches of the till into thick, rich topsoil in five years.

I did this by working grass clippings, dead leaves, and wood chips into the till along with a few dead rats. It is wet in Seattle. It did not take long for everything to rot into topsoil. This years' contribution will be compost which started to rot about a year ago. Most of it has already turned to CO2. I will work this compost in when I finish harvesting this years' veggies. I still have green tomatoes. It is a warm autumn here. I will turn the compost into my topsoil with a shovel.

Nature does not have surplus area to feed topsoil growth like I do. The ratio is fixed one to one. I have surplus organic debris to feed my garden. Natural soil would build more slowly, but thousands of times more slowly? In some places I guess. My latitude is at 47 degrees. It rains enough for forest to grow here. Thick forest. Natural soil builds faster where I live than other places. But I know from making my own topsoil by understanding the process, that there are places in the world where it takes much longer than a thousand years to build up three centimeters.

The thousands of years to build an inch of soil dictum as been around for decades. I don't like it so much. On hearing it people get doe eyes and go silent. It is a thoughtstopper. An imprecise maxim which in the right time and place expresses true fact. In other time and place the statement is not true. But the factoid carries the gravitas of an all encompassing deep thought.

People don't understand what topsoil is. That is where the deep feeling of gravitas comes from. Gardeners and organic farmers know what soil is. But lots of people don't have a clue about what soil is. Many city people don't know what dirt is made from. They never had to think about it.

Just hearing soil is broken down plant matter does not mean much. It is an oversimplified description. Soil describes the surface of the earth where the surface is not water, or bare rock. A broad definition. Soil comes in different kinds. Soil where plants can grow is topsoil. Pulverized rock mixed with decayed organic matter with a zoo of microorganisms having capability to hold water. That last part is very important. Crop plants can't grow without soil which holds water.

I read there are only 60 Years of Farming left if soil degradation continues. I read 150 years somewhere else.

WTF, somewhere in the world somebody will be farming in 60 years. Even 150 if people are still around.

The calculation of when soil runs out is descriptive, but it results from math and is an abstraction. Math abstracted from the real world. Valuable information when understood in the right way. But only if understood in the right way. In proper context. Degradation comes from turning soil with a shovel. The same technique which can also build it up. Turning topsoil destroys organic matter unless new organic material is turned into topsoil at the same time. The reason is, organic matter in soil is not fully decomposed. Microorganism in soil break down organic matter turning organic matter into carbon dioxide. But microorganisms need oxygen to digest organic matter. Turning soil aerates microbes as oxygen from the air is mixed into the soil. Microorganisms then get to work, multiply and thrive. Carbon is released.

Apparently an average farm, I assume in America, digests soil from plowing at a rate that would mean it would all be gone in 60 years or 150 years, something like that. Some farms will last longer whatever the number is. Somewhere a farm has already burned up all its topsoil.

Thousands of years of prairie growth left a thick layer of topsoil over the American Midwest. In Iowa this prairie legacy created topsoil which was 14 to 18 inches deep, in the year 1900, over a hundred years ago. A hundred years later farming degraded the topsoil to be only 6 to 8 inches thick.

As topsoil thins, it gets difficult to grow crops. Yields suffer. A good harvest can't tolerate bad weather. Hot climate changed weather will cause heat and drought. Entire crops will be lost as remaining topsoil does not store enough water to keep crops alive. Soil will continue to degrade as climate chaos intensifies. A double whammy and this is not good.

No till farming. Farming techniques that do not turn soil exist. There is an answer to the soil degradation problem. Not turning soil keeps in carbon and enriches soil biology. Organic no-till practices, with cover crops and other smartness increased soil carbon by 9 percent after two years, and by 21 percent after six years. I encountered this factoid and I believe it is true based on my own experience, somewhere in the world. Plowing a cover crop into topsoil builds up organic matter.

Capitalism does not build topsoil. Capital always wants to grow and in the American farming industry short term profit is more important than long term farm health. Extractive and destructive technology is used over alternative technologies because such technologies give maximum profit. If soil were to be gone in 10 years instead of 60 or 150, short term profit would consider consequence. But capitalism cannot give long term solutions to problems because profit must always be maximized. Thus the economic system we have is self-destructive. Like a scorpion carried across the river on the back of a frog. We will drown without revolutionary change. That is the nature of America and our capitalist world as we know it now. Capitalism does not consider the future and our march of chaos into a land of bad consequences inexorably goes on.

Digwe Must · « **Reply #18 on:** October 29, 2021, 07:28:18 pm »

Quote from: K-Dog on October 29, 2021, 06:06:15 pm

Farmin

I read three centimeters of topsoil takes a thousand years to build up.

WTF, I have a patch of glacial till on the east side of the house. Fifty years ago, this ground lay buried 20 feet under. Nothing but sand and rock. The till was exposed when second growth forest was cleared, and the land was graded. I turned the top 18 inches of the till into thick, rich topsoil in five years.

I did this by working grass clippings, dead leaves, and wood chips into the till along with a few dead rats. It is wet in Seattle. It did not take long for everything to rot into topsoil. This years' contribution will be compost which started to rot about a year ago. Most of it has already turned to CO2. I will work this compost in when I finish harvesting this years' veggies. I still have green tomatoes. It is a warm autumn here. I will turn the compost into my topsoil with a shovel.

Nature does not have surplus area to feed topsoil growth like I do. The ratio is fixed one to one. I have surplus organic debris to feed my garden. Natural soil would build more slowly, but thousands of times more slowly? In some places I guess. My latitude is at 47 degrees. It rains enough for forest to grow here. Thick forest. Natural soil builds faster where I live than other places. But I know from making my own topsoil by understanding the process, that there are places in the world where it takes much longer than a thousand years to build up three centimeters.

The thousands of years to build an inch of soil dictum as been around for decades. I don't like it so much. On hearing it people get doe eyes and go silent. It is a thoughtstopper. An imprecise maxim which in the right time and place expresses true fact. In other time and place the statement is not true. But the factoid carries the gravitas of an all encompassing deep thought.

People don't understand what topsoil is. That is where the deep feeling of gravitas comes from. Gardeners and organic farmers know what soil is. But lots of people don't have a clue about what soil is. Many city people don't know what dirt is made from. They never had to think about it.

Just hearing soil is broken down plant matter does not mean much. It is an oversimplified description. Soil describes the surface of the earth where the surface is not water, or bare rock. A broad definition. Soil comes in different kinds. Soil where plants can grow is topsoil. Pulverized rock mixed with decayed organic matter with a zoo of microorganisms having capability to hold water. That last part is very important. Crop plants can't grow without soil which holds water.

I read there are only 60 Years of Farming left if soil degradation continues. I read 150 years somewhere else.

WTF, somewhere in the world somebody will be farming in 60 years. Even 150 if people are still around.

The calculation of when soil runs out is descriptive, but it results from math and is an abstraction. Math abstracted from the real world. Valuable information when understood in the right way. But only if understood in the right way. In proper context. Degradation comes from turning soil with a shovel. The same technique which can also build it up. Turning topsoil destroys organic matter unless new organic material is turned into topsoil at the same time. The reason is, organic matter in soil is not fully decomposed. Microorganism in soil break down organic matter turning organic matter into carbon dioxide. But microorganisms need oxygen to digest organic matter. Turning soil aerates microbes as oxygen from the air is mixed into the soil. Microorganisms then get to work, multiply and thrive. Carbon is released.

Apparently an average farm, I assume in America, digests soil from plowing at a rate that would mean it would all be gone in 60 years or 150 years, something like that. Some farms will last longer whatever the number is. Somewhere a farm has already burned up all its topsoil.

Thousands of years of prairie growth left a thick layer of topsoil over the American Midwest. In Iowa this prairie legacy created topsoil which was 14 to 18 inches deep, in the year 1900, over a hundred years ago. A hundred years later farming degraded the topsoil to be only 6 to 8 inches thick.

As topsoil thins, it gets difficult to grow crops. Yields suffer. A good harvest can't tolerate bad weather. Hot climate changed weather will cause heat and drought. Entire crops will be lost as remaining topsoil does not store enough water to keep crops alive. Soil will continue to degrade as climate chaos intensifies. A double whammy and this is not good.

No till farming. Farming techniques that do not turn soil exist. There is an answer to the soil degradation problem. Not turning soil keeps in carbon and enriches soil biology. Organic no-till practices, with cover crops and other smartness increased soil carbon by 9 percent after two years, and by 21 percent after six years. I encountered this factoid and I believe it is true based on my own experience, somewhere in the world. Plowing a cover crop into topsoil builds up organic matter.

Capitalism does not build topsoil. Capital always wants to grow and in the American farming industry short term profit is more important than long term farm health. Extractive and destructive technology is used over alternative technologies because such technologies give maximum profit. If soil were to be gone in 10 years instead of 60 or 150, short term profit would consider consequence. But capitalism cannot give long term solutions to problems because profit must always be maximized. Thus the economic system we have is self-destructive. Like a scorpion carried across the river on the back of a frog. We will drown without revolutionary change. That is the nature of America and our capitalist world as we know it now. Capitalism does not consider the future and our march of chaos into a land of bad consequences inexorably goes on.

There are several methods to accelerate the building of topsoil that also offer a yield from the land. I highly recommend the work of Alan Savory. His results give me great cause to be humble. It is possible to build topsoil using intensive rotational grazing at a rate of up to an inch a year depending on the climate. This is not theory. We've seen it work.

Oh, vegans hate him, so...forewarned.

This is his rather famous Ted Talk. However, he has much good material at his institute's site.

It is possible to use holistic grazing in rotation with other crops and mixed livestock varieties.

You mention the Great Plains. The bison and other herds of ungulates were a major factor in creating the very deep topsoil. Holistic grazers now follow the pattern that naturally exists. The bison would go through an area and intensely mow it down. They stayed bunched up fairly tight because of the predators that were always on the fringes of the herd. They generally moved slowly, mowing as they went. They, of course, fertilized the ground as they went but it was much more than that. By eating the grass down, the root mass died back to accommodate what it could support, then began to grow again as the above ground growth resumed. This adds organic material rapidly. Also the hoof prints create tiny reservoirs for rainwater to soak in slowly. Having unlimited grazing, the bison would not return until the grass had grown up again. Add in the effects of occasional wildfire and you have an efficient soil building system. I should add here that for thousands of years natives would use fire to drive the bison over jumps and into traps. This had profound effect on the prairie ecology.

No till is better than till, but perennial crops would be better. For that we can look to Wes Jackson. A remarkable man.

Also, getting biochar into the soil really accelerates the fertility gain. The char in the soil acts as habitat for the microorganisms and they tend to thrive. Depending on the scale of the project there are many methods one can use to build topsoil.

As you note, a very big force working against this is capitalism and debt. The farmer cannot go to the bank and say he wants to redesign his entire system and he'll need a few years to get a really good return.

For the libertarian Christian perspective - but his work is valid - Joel Salatin

There are many methods to build soil. If there was a real push for regenerative ag, giant strides could and would be made - but that is not going to happen before the money lenders lose control. As Jim Hightower used to say, "If you want the water to clear up you have to get the hogs out of the creek."

Building soil is building wealth.

RE · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2021, 12:48:32 am »

Here is something on the Ag level I DO know something about and can contribut my 2cents to.

Soil Building vs Depletion is a simple calculation of Inputs vs Outputs More inputs than outputs, soil builds. More outputs than inputs, soil depletes. So what are the outputs and inputs?

In large part, 3 very common elements Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen are used for the life process, and all are present in the atmosphere as gases. Nitogen also is necessary and makes up a large part of living systems, also in great supply in the atmosphere. But it is present as N2, a diatomic molecule that is quite stable, and needs to be "ficed" into Nitrous Oxide or Ammonia to be useful for living things. Legumes (beans) do that naturally, the Haber process does it industrially.

C,H & O provide the energy source for all living things, in plants through Photosynthesis from energy collected from the sun. It is stored in two other types of molecules, Carbohydrates and Fats.

The next important element necessary for the energy system is Phosphorus, not a gas and not present in the atmosphere to any significant degree. P is necessary to move the e
energy around as part of a molecule Adenosine Tri-Phostphate. This powers all the uphill reactions of all living things, plant or animal. A couple of systems, the Krebs Cycle and Electron transport chain do the energy transfer job. These are pretty complex systems, but overall pretty efficient for what they need to do.

Finally, there are a whole bunch of other elements required to build a plant or animal, Sodium, Potassium, Magnesium, Calcium, Iron, Sulfur, Chlorine etc. Chlorine is the only gas here, but it is too reactive to hang out in the atmosphere. It is present as a salt in various inorganic and organic molecules, or as an ion in salt solutions with water.

Now that we have a primer here on the system, where is it all coming from in any given biome to make all the living things in that neighborhood? As noted, the C, H, O, & N all come from the atmosphere. C combined with O2 as CO2, H&O combined as H2O, water. O2 & N2 also present. Everything else comes from the land or water environment they grow in.

Now, in a closed system, all the trace elements recycle. Dead animals and plants give back the trace elements to the soil. They also hand them back while living when they excrete. Thus **** and **** are good fertilizers.

However, no biome can produce more living things if it is a closed system without more inputs of all types. Similarly, if there are more outputs than inputs, any given biome will be reduced in what it can support. What we do now is take biomass from one place where it grows, and move it somewhere else to get eaten by people and the animals they raise for food. After that, the excretions are moved out to sea through the rivers. They don't get back to where they originated from. So over time, the soil depletes.

In the H-G era, this did not happen. Everything stayed pretty much where it was, just moving around a little bit. With the development of Ag and Cities, the stuff started moving away from where it was, then downstream and out to sea. Constant depletion for the last 10,000 years.

You can build soil in some places if you are careful with your inputs and outputs, but you can't rebuild it everywhere. The available minerals have been washed out to sea, and getting them back is quite hard because they are so diluted. Good in theory for sea creatures, but they have other problems to deal with also, like the ocean heat content. For Homo Sap, we live on land and the total available stuff is depleted. We have supplanted what was available through mining, but like coal, phosphate mines are pretty played out also.

Homo Sap numbers will reduce and the rest of the biome will recover, over time. Quite a long time. What it took 10.000 years to wash out to sea will likely take 1M years to get back as the ocean inundates the land and the stuff that makes life possible gets redeposited. In the meantime, Homo Sap numbers will decrease to whatever the land still can support in total. That number is not too large, relatively speaking. I can't tell you the exact number, but my WAG would be about 1:1000. How long it will take to drop that low also unknown. I do know however the Reindeer on St. Matthews Island accomplished this task in a very short time indeed.

RE

K-Dog · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2021, 10:24:24 am »

Digwe Must posted a great link with Wes Jackson.

RE's 2 cents almost reads like a summary of what Wes said. I'm not guessing nor do I care about what came first the chicken or the egg because these are basic Doom 101 facts. (well not basic because you have to have a brain to understand and that leaves most people out. Sad but true. A touch of math is involved to understand how **** we are.)

At 28 minutes in or so Wes covers the Haber Process but RE covered it first.

I posted the Wes video with my article.

* In the University of Doom the class that covers the Haber Process is actually Doom 201.

Nearings fault · « **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2021, 12:36:41 pm »

Believe it or not one of the big problems in the off-grid solar world in the northern hemisphere is what to do with all the extra summer production of energy. Before haber there was Birkeland eyde... I thought about playing with this technology but am currently focused on energy efficient structures and energy generation these days. Here is a diy video of it...

This article envisages a future where farm scale generation of fertilizer comes back.
https://titan.uio.no/naturvitenskap-teknologi-energi-og-miljo-innovasjon-english/2017/future-farmer-will-make-synthetic-fertilizers-her-own-farm

K-Dog · « **Reply #22 on:** October 31, 2021, 09:11:29 am »

Sweet. Nice alchemy going on. I'll guess he uses a neon sign transformer.

Lightning breaks the bonds of N2 molecule in the atmosphere. Once split, the N atoms quickly bond to Oxygen, making Nitrogen Dioxide. Nitrogen Dioxide dissolves in raindrops, creating nitric acid. Falling to the ground nitrates are formed.

Microorganisms in the soil do the vast majority of nitrogen fixation.

And the state controlled propaganda rag is good for hard science:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkeland%E2%80%93Eyde_process

Digwe Must · « **Reply #23 on:** October 31, 2021, 12:07:45 pm »

Quote from: K-Dog on October 30, 2021, 10:24:24 am

Digwe Must posted a great link with Wes Jackson.

RE's 2 cents almost reads like a summary of what Wes said. I'm not guessing nor do I care about what came first the chicken or the egg because these are basic Doom 101 facts. (well not basic because you have to have a brain to understand and that leaves most people out. Sad but true. A touch of math is involved to understand how **** we are.)

At 28 minutes in or so Wes covers the Haber Process but RE covered it first.

I posted the Wes video with my article.

* In the University of Doom the class that covers the Haber Process is actually Doom 201.

So K-Dog, how does one find your website and blog?

Wes Jackson is a hero of mine. He is another Fellow of R. Heinberg's Post Carbon Institute. Wes is on the Mt Rushmore of Permaculture with Mollison and Fukuoka. His work is so valuable, and even more so because he knows he'll never see it finished. He is correct that it is an extension of love. Of course the innovations of the perennial prairie he is developing for farmers won't be in time to save the entire s.o.b. But his work and legacy should help those who follow (however many that may be)to do it right - of course at a much reduced scale in collapse. This is why we plant 8 layer polycultures, mimicking, the best we can, natural arrangements and progressions. None of the trees I am planting will be mature for decades after I'm gone.

RE · « **Reply #24 on:** October 31, 2021, 04:52:11 pm »

Quote from: K-Dog on October 31, 2021, 09:11:29 am

Nitrogen Dioxide dissolves in raindrops, creating nitric acid. Falling to the ground nitrates are formed.

Acid-Base chemistry is another aspect of the life process I did not cover. This is inorganic chemistry, and very important.

Life originated in the oceans, exactly how nobody knows, but it did magically appear one day. Sea water is a salt solution, more or less neutral in pH, the scale of Acidity v Base. Most living things operate in a very narrow range between 6-8 on the scale which goes from 1-14, acids on the low end, bases on the high end. There are life forms that exist outside this range, bacteria that live around sulfur vents onthe ocean floor do this. For Homo Sap purposes though, everything you try to grow and your soil needs to stay in the near-neutral range.

So now, where do the Acids and Bases come from that determine the pH of your soil? As mentioned, you get Nitrous Oxide in the atmospher from lightning strikes. You also get Ozone, O3 from this, a super duper reactive oxidizing molecule. CO2 in the atmosphere when dissolved in water makes Carbonic acid, HCO3. Sulfur Dioxide mixes with water to make Sulfuric acid. This is what makes up "Acid Rain", and is why the oceans are becoming more acidic, along with your soil in all probability.

Where do the bases come from to keep this whole system near neutral? Mostly from the mineral salts which dissolve in water and are slightly basic. Burning FFs put more Sulfur Dioxide, Nitrogen Oxide and CO2 up in the atmosphere, making rain more acidic. So, ocean pH and soil pH are sinking overall. Not good for plankton or crustaceans in the ocean, not too good for your tomatoes in the permaculture garden either You have to counteract this by adding something basic to your soil. Lime is popular for this. Where do you get your lime from though?

You can be the most eco-friendly permaculture wizard who conserves all her nutrients and recycles everything, but if your soil gets too acidic you are F*CKED. The tomatoes just won't GROW, dammit!

Baby, the rain must fall. The pH is pretty low on those raindrops falling on your head and your crops these days. Lay in a good supply of lime.

RE

K-Dog · « **Reply #25 on:** October 31, 2021, 09:11:24 pm »

Quote

So K-Dog, how does one find your website and blog?

https://chasingthesquirrel.com/

Long after the fact it occurs to me that I am on the real intellectual dark web.

Be patient. It takes a while to load. I have custom java-script but I really think Uncle Sam slows things down. I Joke, Blue-Host is slow. If it takes too long do a reload. Hover over the colored tiles and watch the menu bar below the colored tiles change. You will have a dot on the globe that will be active for 15 minutes.

K-Dog · « **Reply #26 on:** October 31, 2021, 09:21:30 pm »

Spoiler (hover to show)

Quote from: RE link=topic=74.msg1480#msg1480 date=1635727931
[quote author=K-Dog link=topic=74.msg1473#msg1473 date=1635700289

Nitrogen Dioxide dissolves in raindrops, creating nitric acid. Falling to the ground nitrates are formed.

Acid-Base chemistry is another aspect of the life process I did not cover. This is inorganic chemistry, and very important.

Life originated in the oceans, exactly how nobody knows, but it did magically appear one day. Sea water is a salt solution, more or less neutral in pH, the scale of Acidity v Base. Most living things operate in a very narrow range between 6-8 on the scale which goes from 1-14, acids on the low end, bases on the high end. There are life forms that exist outside this range, bacteria that live around sulfur vents on the ocean floor do this. For Homo Sap purposes though, everything you try to grow and your soil needs to stay in the near-neutral range.

So now, where do the Acids and Bases come from that determine the pH of your soil? As mentioned, you get Nitrous Oxide in the atmospher from lightning strikes. You also get Ozone, O3 from this, a super duper reactive oxidizing molecule. CO2 in the atmosphere when dissolved in water makes Carbonic acid, HCO3. Sulfur Dioxide mixes with water to make Sulfuric acid. This is what makes up "Acid Rain", and is why the oceans are becoming more acidic, along with your soil in all probability.

Where do the bases come from to keep this whole system near neutral? Mostly from the mineral salts which dissolve in water and are slightly basic. Burning FFs put more Sulfur Dioxide, Nitrogen Oxide and CO2 up in the atmosphere, making rain more acidic. So, ocean pH and soil pH are sinking overall. Not good for plankton or crustaceans in the ocean, not too good for your tomatoes in the permaculture garden either You have to counteract this by adding something basic to your soil. Lime is popular for this. Where do you get your lime from though?

You can be the most eco-friendly permaculture wizard who conserves all her nutrients and recycles everything, but if your soil gets too acidic you are F*CKED. The tomatoes just won't GROW, dammit!

Baby, the rain must fall. The pH is pretty low on those raindrops falling on your head and your crops these days. Lay in a good supply of lime.

RE
[/quote]

Somewhere lipid molecules mixed with primordial strands of nucleic acid and it began to reproduce. Like a COVID vaccine hypo squirted in a soupy lake of molecules and left to ferment for a few millennia.

RE · « **Reply #27 on:** October 31, 2021, 10:44:41 pm »

Quote from: K-Dog on October 31, 2021, 09:21:30 pm

Somewhere lipid molecules mixed with primordial strands of nucleic acid and it began to reproduce. Like a COVID vaccine hypo squirted in a soupy lake of molecules and left to ferment for a few millennia.

The "Primordiall Soup" Theory, which sadly has a gaping hole a mile wide.

Nucleic Acids and Lipids don't spontaneously reproduce themselves. There are numerous proteins involved in this process along with the amino acids they are built from. Most of all in importance is there is a specific code involved that ties this all together.

The proteins involved are huge complex things that fold up in all sorts of neat ways to make various reactions possible. They are biological catalysts.

So what has to happen here is this coding has to magically appear out of thin water and POOF life appears! It would be like the code for your website spontaneously popping up, except vastly more complex than that. Not only that, the machine code the computer actually runs on has to self invent, and so does the compiler which translates your code into machine code. Sorry, I do not buy the idea an infinite number of chimps given an infinite amount of time would type out the complete works of Shakespeare. Besides, you don't have infinite time available, just a few billion years since the Big Bang, which now according to the smartest guys in the room did not pop into existence as a singularity. There you then have still more rules for how protons, neutrons and electrons assemble into elements, and how these subatomic particles are further assembled from quarks and gluons.

Your website is not a random event. It took you to design it. Do you really buy the idea YOU are the the result of a random bunch of lipids and nucleic acids accidentally bumping into each other in the ocean and then spontaneously developing a code to reproduce?

RE

Phil Potts · « **Reply #28 on:** November 01, 2021, 12:21:04 am »

Entropy is a physical law except where there is life. Vitality is the opposite of entropy, so can not spontaneously be an exception in linnear time. If it could, you would have evidence of it happening in the period of recorded scientific observations, somewhere among the inestimable number of atoms on Earth. Scratches inside coffin lids are not indisputable evidence of inanimate matter becoming alive.

K-Dog · « **Reply #29 on:** November 01, 2021, 07:59:43 pm »

The vitality of life depends on energy flow.

Energy flow against rules generates complexity.

When energy flow reduces...............................................

Global Collapse

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Author Topic: Dieoff Errata (Read 4890 times)

RE

Re: Dieoff Errata

K-Dog

Re: Dieoff Errata

K-Dog

Re: Dieoff Errata

Digwe Must

Re: Dieoff Errata

RE

Re: Dieoff Errata

K-Dog

Re: Dieoff Errata

Nearings fault

Re: Dieoff Errata

K-Dog

Re: Dieoff Errata

Digwe Must

Re: Dieoff Errata

RE

Re: Dieoff Errata

K-Dog

Re: Dieoff Errata

K-Dog

Re: Dieoff Errata

RE

Re: Dieoff Errata

Phil Potts

Re: Dieoff Errata

K-Dog

Re: Dieoff Errata