Author Topic: Education Errata  (Read 379 times)

RE

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Education Errata
« on: November 24, 2021, 04:24:07 pm »
Kickoff article for this topic here on GC.  We had a whole board dedicated to it on the Diner

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/24/colleges-must-adapt-to-post-pandemic-reality-as-enrollment-plunges.html
As college enrollment plunges, schools must adapt to post-pandemic reality

Covid has certainly accelerated this problem, but in reality there have been diminishing returns for most HS graduates for at least 20 years, as the costs have skyrocketed, the debt load necessary to get the sheepskin increased and the number of jobs available that could support that debt load shrank.

If you have a parent who can finance you; if you can get into a top rated school, the Future's so Bright you gotta wear shades.  This might be 1% of the population.  For everybody else attending Community Colleges or taking an Online Law Degree, it's a total focking waste of money and time.  HS graduates are now grasping this reality and opting out of this generally fake ticket to a better life.

University level education is reverting to what it traditionally always was:  A way for the Aristocracy and Elite to train their own children to be the next generation of Rulers.  The idea you could educate EVERYONE to be a Ruler is preposterous.  You only need a tiny number of Rulers in a society, but you need a LOT of Drone Worker Bees.

Community Colleges are NOT a place you become educated anymore, if they ever were.  They are Job Training Factories for Worker Bees.  Every kid I have met going to a CC after HS picks some track for a job that pays a little better than flipping burgers at Mickey Ds.  Often these days in the Medical Industry.  Dental Hygenist.  Ultrasound Tech etc..  And then the Holy Grail, NURSE!  Here they have to learn a whole lotta shyt they never use and don't need to know, because all the job really entails is following the Doctor's Order for meds. If you can set up an IV drip and record it in the database, that's it!  lol.  You do not need to know all the drug interactions possible, in fact it's better you don't, because if you question the Doctor's order, your ass is grass.

For this "great job" some of my younger PCAs aspire to, maybe they can earn $60-80K, but while working as a PCA and going to Uni part time it will take them 6-8 years just to get this ticket.  Then they gotta spend another 10 years paying off the loans. So it's 15-20 years before they can see any real economic improvement .  Can't afford to buy a McHovel or raise a family until mid-30s, at best.

So, more HS grads are opting out of getting on this Squirrel Wheel.  Which then makes it harder to replace the ones who quit, die or retire.  Perpetual Shortage ensues.

It's another Demographic problem, which grows too slow for most people to grasp, like they cannot grasp exponential growth.  At some point though, it reaches Critical Mass.

RE

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Nearings fault

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2021, 08:00:23 am »
My kids are too young for this to be top of mind, but I do have topped up savings accounts for them already. Canada still has a mostly subsidized "college" system which we would refer to as University with pretty good end results still. There are degrees that have better outcomes of course there always have been. If they can take the studying and it speaks to them I will push for stem programs. One would do well if she has the drive for it. The other is more social but does well academically. We will see. The college system here is more trades and skills related and seems to be very successful. It is also very subsidized and linked to the relevant industries who are desperate for trained people. Where the system seems to fall down is in guiding people into a good path. There are far too many under employed people who face a lifetime of under acheiving jobs with little security. Always worrying about automation and foreign cheap wage outsourcing...

Cam

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2021, 08:34:13 am »
I'm still in the system right now. I followed the generic advice out of highschool which was "do what you love". The issue is I am interested in just about everything. Psychology was one of my big ones though so I went for that.  I got a bachelors degree at my local university which took from 2016-2020. Had a lot of fun and learned a ton...but the job prospects weren't amazing without further education such as a master's in clinical psych or branching off into occupational therapy or speech pathology. There is some money in research too but that is a long road - too long for my patience. I also wouldn't want to devote so much of my life to a single specific topic, that is just not how I roll.

In third year of my degree I decided to explore the trades, because I was learning that I really do not like sitting still all day. My uncle recommended electrical as its easy on your body relative to most other trades. So I gave it a shot and I loved it. I took the a pre apprenticeship program at my local college and had lots of fun. That will be my career I think. I tried applying to the union this year but no luck. I will give it another go next year.

Meanwhile I am taking a welding course this fall all the way into next summer. We're learning everything! Stick, MIG, TIG, flame cutting and welding, plasma cutting (so so cool), brazing, and more. So now even if electrical isn't working out for whatever reason I have another skill at the ready. I'm gonna be a darn good hobbyist welder now that's for sure.

I think I might also get a DZ or AZ licence. It's another marketable skill and that just looks so fun to me. There are ALWAYS jobs posted for licensed truck drivers where I am, usually construction companies needing dump truck drivers. Pays quite well and the license doesn't seem to take too long to get either.

I am completely debt free as well, but that is half luck and half frugality. Having a college and university in my hometown has made it easy to live at home and work part time to pay tuition.


Nearings fault

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2021, 09:09:57 am »
My kids are too young for this to be top of mind, but I do have topped up savings accounts for them already. Canada still has a mostly subsidized "college" system which we would refer to as University with pretty good end results still. There are degrees that have better outcomes of course there always have been. If they can take the studying and it speaks to them I will push for stem programs.

STEM works fine, locally we hire folks who have a major or Masters in one thing, and then another degree to compliment it. Economics and stats for example. Engineering and economics. Rarely are  computer degrees necessary, as understanding them, using them, using software, this knowledge appears to incorporated in most college degrees nowadays. Whereas my expertise was once state of the art, I am now a dinosaur.

Quote from: Nearings Fault

Where the system seems to fall down is in guiding people into a good path. There are far too many under employed people who face a lifetime of under acheiving jobs with little security. Always worrying about automation and foreign cheap wage outsourcing...

I always figured guiding to a good path is a parental thing. If all you have to sell is your labor, you don't have anything worth selling in the modern world.
I completely agree with you but what do you do as a society if the modelling some kids have at home absolutely sucks? Do you just wash your hands of them and pay their way through for the rest of their lives or do you try and intervene? Canada is a very socialist ish country so there are a lot of benefits. The system relies on people doing better as they age to pay it all back in taxes. If low acheivers are forever on the dole of one sort or another it all falls apart eventually. So, I think society has a vested interest in upping their level of acheivement. It's a balancing act between nanny state and self actualization though...

Nearings fault

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2021, 09:59:45 am »
Again we completely agree. I have family in the southern US and it always reminds me of a pressure cooker waiting to explode. I've had some acquaintance s f on Denmark and Norway and it seems like a claustrophobic nanny state... People get used to their own fish bowl I suppose. I do find that US doom news overshadows everything due to sheer population and economic reach. The suttle local flavour of doom from a Canadian perspective is what I look for now as well as Monsta and the Australian contingent. I do like seeing Cam drop in and I do still miss C5 even if we sometimes disagreed on speed and trajectory...
Cheers,. NF

Phil Potts

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2021, 11:55:25 am »
Are Eddy and I the only one here who have college educated kids and can speak to this issue with experience? Surely we aren't the only 2?

I can discuss two college graduated kids, how they handled debt, their work histories, salaries, advancement through the modern workplace, and none of it looks like what has been opined by someone with...how many kids through college, and how recently? I could also discuss my own experience, but I believe it is outdated in the modern work environment.

I can also discuss two modern working environments, one research heavy (75% PhDs), one application driven (30% PhDs),the value and type of college degrees and the degrees preferred for those positions, the level of education required, age, sex, experience levels with 3 current hiring experiences (engineering and economics, MBA specializing in communications, a pure economist), etc etc.  Anyone want to discuss what we know and can converse about at the personal and professional level, or is random bullshitting on what journalists (cough cough, giggle giggle) "know" the best we can do?

"If you have a parent who can finance you, the futures so bright you gotta wear shades."

I can join you and Eddie in proving what RE said there re my spawn. Cam also talking about being very lucky to still be living with parents. 

You didn't seem to bother reading the article that cites tons of real figures and interviews people saying it is also all about very much about this distinction. Still tell us, I'm interested.

You said your son works at Amazon and lives with you while still studying right? Your daughter recently decided to "take her qualifications for a spin" and had 3 interviews in 3 days? You said something about her recently taking a course with no help from you or your wife as well. Paid for by employer, husband, or tax deductible expense then? Did she do detailed applications addressing selection criteria or just send out resumes. Were all the interviews in the same city, or online?

Eddie often talks about various adult kids moving home. Nothing wrong with that, very nice to have happening, but it also proves the point that RE and the article are making. It's a luxury not everyone enjoys. There are homes people can't wait to get out of or are kicked out of. Many are expected to start helping with the bills around 16 or 17. That's often a parents medical bills. They are expected to do that whether they stay or are sent away. They never were competing on a level playing field, so I'm reminded of Surly's old saying about starting life on third base and hitting a home run.

The other factor to explain the huge drop in enrolments that didn't get mentioned, is the same reason so many people are now leaving their jobs or being sacked.
MSNBC even ran another story on them not coming back if it means they have to get vax, but I can't find it now. Theres this though:

https://www.thecollegefix.com/despite-95-vaccination-rate-cornell-today-has-five-times-more-covid-cases-than-it-did-this-time-last-year/

« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 12:02:45 pm by Phil Potts »

K-Dog

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2021, 12:13:47 pm »
Quote
The drop-off last year was not unexpected amid the early stages of the pandemic, but a cumulative 6.6% drop over two years has raised concerns that fewer Americans see the value of post-secondary education.

From RE's article.

The concern of not being able to pay for it appears to be disregarded.  People have no jobs, no money.  Current reporting on mass resignations are all about jobs with zero benefits and **** pay.

If things continue in the direction of American oligarchic mismanagement, then I hope something like the gilets jaunes emerges in America.  People quitting jobs because they are treated like slaves for pay which in no way justifies their sacrifice is a symptom of unrest to come.  Foundational collapse.  System breakdown.  Sand in the gears.

People have lost faith in the future but everyone is still in shock. They would go for education if they could pay for it easy, because what else is there to do?  Play video games all day?  Or educate yourself for free.  Like me.  If you are lazy video games are good enough.  But they are not good enough for me.  But paying for education in a dying society? How much sense does that make.  There is no payoff.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 12:21:24 pm by K-Dog »

RE

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2021, 01:43:52 pm »
Cam's experience as well as Eddie's daughter are illustrative of many of the points I made.

In Cam's case, he was able to get a 4 year degree by living home with parents and getting a state supported education in the quasi socialist Great White North.  So pretty much debt free at the moment.  Still, that education didn't offer much in the way of good job opportunities, so he elected to continue education, moving over to the trades, specifically Welding.  When he graduates that program fully trained, what kind of salary can he expect?

Here in the FSoA, the median salary for Welders is $41K.  Range between $35K & $60K for the most part. This translates to around $20/hr, and straight out of HS now Amazon will pay $17hr.  Assuming he can find a good welding job after graduation, it will still take a few years to be at the higher end of the pay scale.  Even that salary though is barely middle class and won't buy you a McMansion.  He'll be 25-30 before he could even consider marriage on the economic level, and that's only if his wife also works, making a similar amount.  And that is a best case scenario for the graduate with no debt.

For Eddie's daughter, she has been a perpetual student for a decade already, now planning to go to Med Skule.  That's another 4 years, and a year of Internship and another of Residency after that.  She has lived at home for most of these years also.  Add it all up, she's easily 35 before she's out working as a Doc, and only low on debt because of 15 years worth of free rent and food from Eddie.

These examples although illustrative are just anecdotal.  The real problem is in the statistics the OP article detailed.  Enrollments ARE dropping, and quite rapidly.  This means fewer small colleges can employ fewer teachers, and they end up going outta biz.  That means fewer spots available for recent HS grads who might want to get on this merry-go-round.  There is no guaranteed payoff for doing so either, the only guarantee here is unless you have good parental support financially along the way, you'll have a huge debt load to pay off that is not dischargeable in bankruptcy.

Meanwhile, if you can live at home and eat for free on your parents dime after HS, you could earn $140K in 4 years flipping burgers at Mickey D's  You'll need some money to buy your gas and pay your cell phone bill of course, unless parents also hand over some money for that also.  So why leave the nest?

You wonder why reproductive rates are falling?  The best years for females to put one in the oven are between 20-30.  They're still not finished with Skule yet!  Only the dumb ones who don't use some contraception get preggers right out of HS or even in Junior High.  Then if they can get the dick who knocked them up to marry, he also is in deep **** trying to support both the wife and kid.  These folks don't generally make the best parents.  The single moms at least get state support though.  That's the dynamic in the black community, in a nutshell.

I expect continuing decrease in young people going on for further education, and a continuing and increasing worker bee shortage as time moves on here.

RE

Cam

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2021, 11:33:50 am »
Somehow I missed your reply RE. I'm taking welding to get better at a hobby, not as a career. I'm going into electrical for that, mostly because of all the trades it's the easiest on your body. There's the risk of shock and carpal tunnel from twisting wires together, but compared to the other trades (lung cancer for welding, bad knees and back for carpentry etc) I'd say it's pretty good.

I applied to the union last year but didn't get in sadly. Just called today to see what the process is for next year's application. I've heard the acceptance rate is higher for repeat applicants because they know you're really interested and not just tossing an application in. Worst case I don't get in again, and begin my hunt in my hometown for businesses looking to take on an apprentice. If absolutely no one can take me as an apprentice (there are 42 businesses in my area so this is not too likely) i will ask my favored businesses when they foresee a position opening up. Say one business has an apprentice moving to another company in 4 months from now. I just work as a laborer/helper, and that way the owner can see my work ethic and punctuality and all that. Then i hopefully take that person's spot once they're out of there. That's the plan at least.

Financially I know I will do well. Keeping debt levels low and living well below my means should keep things going smoothly. Basically the plan is to be earning a solid middle class income but spending far less than a typical middle class person. Then investing a lot of the extra, probably in Dogecoin. Okay no not Dogecoin, i have other plans but that would be funny. I'm also hanging around the early retirement extreme forums which is a great spot to learn about living frugally and investing, usually for the long-term.

Nearings fault

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2021, 11:45:48 am »
Somehow I missed your reply RE. I'm taking welding to get better at a hobby, not as a career. I'm going into electrical for that, mostly because of all the trades it's the easiest on your body. There's the risk of shock and carpal tunnel from twisting wires together, but compared to the other trades (lung cancer for welding, bad knees and back for carpentry etc) I'd say it's pretty good.

I applied to the union last year but didn't get in sadly. Just called today to see what the process is for next year's application. I've heard the acceptance rate is higher for repeat applicants because they know you're really interested and not just tossing an application in. Worst case I don't get in again, and begin my hunt in my hometown for businesses looking to take on an apprentice. If absolutely no one can take me as an apprentice (there are 42 businesses in my area so this is not too likely) i will ask my favored businesses when they foresee a position opening up. Say one business has an apprentice moving to another company in 4 months from now. I just work as a laborer/helper, and that way the owner can see my work ethic and punctuality and all that. Then i hopefully take that person's spot once they're out of there. That's the plan at least.

Financially I know I will do well. Keeping debt levels low and living well below my means should keep things going smoothly. Basically the plan is to be earning a solid middle class income but spending far less than a typical middle class person. Then investing a lot of the extra, probably in Dogecoin. Okay no not Dogecoin, i have other plans but that would be funny. I'm also hanging around the early retirement extreme forums which is a great spot to learn about living frugally and investing, usually for the long-term.
I like the money mustache guy. He had high high-tech income for his original nest egg but he puts out a solid blog... I've found his reflections on financial fear very helpful.

Cam

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2021, 12:15:57 pm »
I like the money mustache guy. He had high high-tech income for his original nest egg but he puts out a solid blog... I've found his reflections on financial fear very helpful.

Yes he was my introduction to early retirement. Some things I have disagree with such as the 100% index allocation but i like just about everything else. I go back and read his stuff from time to time, and i always enjoy myself when I do.

Nearings fault

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2021, 02:45:24 pm »
I like the money mustache guy. He had high high-tech income for his original nest egg but he puts out a solid blog... I've found his reflections on financial fear very helpful.

Yes he was my introduction to early retirement. Some things I have disagree with such as the 100% index allocation but i like just about everything else. I go back and read his stuff from time to time, and i always enjoy myself when I do.
yes definitely not a doomer. He does seem to like passive income real estate which is paid for so that would be his safer investments I suppose. I like that he sweat equities his real estate. I enjoyed his recent posts on heat pumps and his older ones on DIY solar. I agreed with most of it which for energy/ diy build bloggers is damn impressive.

Cam

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2021, 03:12:35 am »
yes definitely not a doomer. He does seem to like passive income real estate which is paid for so that would be his safer investments I suppose. I like that he sweat equities his real estate. I enjoyed his recent posts on heat pumps and his older ones on DIY solar. I agreed with most of it which for energy/ diy build bloggers is damn impressive.

That makes sense, I forgot about that. I will definitely give his heat pump and solar stuff a read. If it has the NF seal of approval then I know it's good.  ;D

moniker

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Re: Education Errata
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2022, 03:42:55 pm »
A play about Frank McCourt