Author Topic: Energy Errata  (Read 13913 times)

RE

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Energy Errata
« on: August 07, 2021, 02:01:11 am »
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-06/the-era-of-cheap-natural-gas-ends-as-prices-surge-by-1-000

1000% ???  That's a 10X price jump.  We heat here with NG.  My bill 2 years ago in winter averaged $50/mo.  That would mean this year it would be $500/mo!!!  WTF could afford that ?!?!  If you have a whole McMansion to heat, $200/mo turns into $2000/mo !!!

Something's gotta give.

RE

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Nearings fault

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2021, 06:52:40 am »
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-06/the-era-of-cheap-natural-gas-ends-as-prices-surge-by-1-000

1000% ???  That's a 10X price jump.  We heat here with NG.  My bill 2 years ago in winter averaged $50/mo.  That would mean this year it would be $500/mo!!!  WTF could afford that ?!?!  If you have a whole McMansion to heat, $200/mo turns into $2000/mo !!!

Something's gotta give.

RE
insulation, smaller homes and heat pumps... The new house is right on trend. Bring on high energy costs, good for the green building world

RE

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2021, 08:45:13 am »
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-06/the-era-of-cheap-natural-gas-ends-as-prices-surge-by-1-000

1000% ???  That's a 10X price jump.  We heat here with NG.  My bill 2 years ago in winter averaged $50/mo.  That would mean this year it would be $500/mo!!!  WTF could afford that ?!?!  If you have a whole McMansion to heat, $200/mo turns into $2000/mo !!!

Something's gotta give.

RE
insulation, smaller homes and heat pumps... The new house is right on trend. Bring on high energy costs, good for the green building world

I live in an 800 sq ft unit of a modern well insulated multi unit dwelling, which is far more efficient than single family dwellings.  fewer exterior walls per capita.  I only expected to pay about $50/mo for heating.  I doubt the price will rise 10X, but it could triple.  That is a huge bight out of my budget.  Many low income seniors and the working poor cannot afford that kind of hit. What do you propose for them?

RE

Nearings fault

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2021, 11:08:36 am »
I have no good answer for you of course. Times are changing though. I would expect if prices go up the size of apts would shrink to confirm to budgets. You know better than most that the size of apartments has fluctuated with time and current norms are a product of cheap energy.

RE

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2021, 03:15:48 pm »
I have no good answer for you of course. Times are changing though. I would expect if prices go up the size of apts would shrink to confirm to budgets. You know better than most that the size of apartments has fluctuated with time and current norms are a product of cheap energy.

I could live easily in a much smaller space of course.  Well set up, I think I could get as small as 15X20 and have everything I need including bathroom and kithen facilities.  Alternatively, I probably could share this unit with two other cripples,  though I don't like living with other people.  However, such transitions won't happen overnight, wheras your heating bill tripling could happen overnight.  Like COVID, this is something which could radically affect the society very rapidly, like this winter.  Also not soluble with masks or vaxes.  The only solution I see is Gubermint subsidy, but how much more can they really print?

RE

Nearings fault

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2021, 06:17:59 pm »
It seems like goverents can print endless amounts... Until they cannot. I think the transition could come fast. Probably in odd ways at first like abandoning parts of apartments to the cold or doubling up.  I lived in a shared house where we had added a room on the sly by boarding off the dining room to lower rent. Vancouver rents were crazy even twenty years ago... Weird times.

RE

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What Happens If We Stop Pumping Oil Tomorrow?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2021, 07:54:45 pm »
This is no big newz to anyone in the Peak Oil or Collapse communities,, but it ignores the fact that a gradual transition doesn't work all that much better.  As soon as Growth goes negative, the economy goes into recession.  Better than instantaneous chaos of course, but the end result after a couple of decades would be about the same.  No avoiding it, just delaying it some.  Good for people within 20 or so years of dieing from Old Age anyhow who are a growing fraction of the demographics, so none of them will vote to stop all oil production.    Neither will the Millenials, who once the iPhones disappear from the shelves will go berzerk.

On that note, I was out shopping with my PCA yesterday at Walmart, at the electronics section was barely half full.  Only a few models from major manufacturers like Apple and Samsung were available.  Probably a greater selection still available Online from Amazon though.

Somehow, most of the population seems to ignore this is ongoing, but once their current iPhone quits and they can't get a replacement, they'll notice.

RE

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/What-Happens-If-We-Stop-Pumping-Oil-Tomorrow.html

What Happens If We Stop Pumping Oil Tomorrow?
By Irina Slav - Aug 16, 2021, 12:00 PM CDT
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In a traditionally slow news month such as August, any event of relative significance gets abundant coverage. Yet the latest report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was not just an event of relative significance. It was, based on media coverage, an event of huge significance. This significance lay in a stark warning: quit fossil fuels or ruin the planet. The report basically said that if we don't act immediately, we would never be able to limit global warming to 2 degrees Celsius from pre-industrial times. It also noted that some of the changes human activity has inflicted on the planet are already irreversible.

In comments on the report, UN secretary-general Antonio Guterres said, "This report must sound a death knell for coal and fossil fuels, before they destroy our planet," adding "Countries should also end all new fossil fuel exploration and production, and shift fossil fuel subsidies into renewable energy."

The world must urgently wind down fossil fuel supply in an orderly and transparent way and halt high-risk high-cost oil and gas exploration today," said the founder and executive chair of Carbon Tracker.

These reactions—especially the UN's Guterres' call to end all oil and gas exploration—sound quite familiar. The reason is that they echo a call by the International Energy Agency for an end to all new oil and gas exploration before the end of 2021. The IEA made the call in its Net-Zero Roadmap, which saw demand for oil and gas decline fast because of the availability of alternative energy sources.

Soon after the report was released, however, the same International Energy Agency that called for the end of all oil and gas exploration made another call, this time to OPEC. The agency asked the cartel to start pumping more oil as demand for fuels was rebounding faster than expected, pushing prices higher.

U.S. President Joe Biden, who has set a goal to make the U.S. economy net-zero by 2050 and slash emissions by 50 percent by 2030, this week also called on OPEC to boost production. The reason: prices at the pump were too high for American drivers.

The messages coming from IEA and the White House might seem confusing, at best, and hypocritical, at worst. But let's say it was possible for every oil company in the world to decide at the same time to stop the pumps. What would happen then?

The short answer is, of course, chaos. The longer answer covers pretty much every part of any and every economy on the planet and virtually every industry. It will be a while before the full effects begin to be felt because there are stockpiles of oil, gas, and petrochemicals, but even before these begin to dwindle, prices will skyrocket because of the impending supply outage. And this means prices of everything.

“If there was no oil, iPhones, technology, computers, plastics, all manufactured products, food and medicines would not be able to be produced," says Jay R. Young, CEO of King Operating Corporation, an oil and gas investment firm. "So the people in the United States living the Amish lifestyle would be impacted the least.

"We as a society have lost the ability to survive without the food chain and delivery of products. Coal would continue to increase and the CO2 and pollution would increase at a dramatically increasing rate. Billions would die, societies would fail, and the migration to a clean future would be over," Young says.

Related: Visualizing The Gradual Death Of EU Coal Production

It would be difficult to argue with such a vision, regardless of whether it comes from the oil industry or not. Payal Rastogi, founder principal at CarbonFixers, an Indian company working with businesses to make them more environmentally sustainable, shares Young's opinion.

"If we stop consumption and drilling for oil and gas; as of today all the global products and life will come to stand still," she says.

Before this standstill, however, there is bound to be a lot of action, none of its friendly or peaceful. Right now, a price rise of about $1 per gallon of gasoline is prompting the President, who has made it clear he is not a supporter of the oil industry or gasoline, to call on the world's oil-producing cartel to increase oil production as unhappy drivers make for unhappy voters. Now imagine what would happen if the price per gallon of gasoline rose by not $1 but $5 in a matter of days. You don't even need to imagine it: we've seen what happens when fuel shortages hit in Venezuela, for example.

The U.S. has only a month's worth of oil supply, says Dr. Jerry Bailey, chief executive of Utah-based oil company Petroteq Energy Corp. if production stops, the country would be plunged into an immediate depression because a vast amount of U.S. industries depend on the commodity.

Since this is true of all economies and not just the United States, multiplying the effect expected for it by the number of countries in the world should provide the full picture, which will not be pretty.

One might perhaps argue that these are the opinions of people from the oil industry but it would be difficult to counter these opinions in any rational way. The truth is that modern civilization is dependent on hydrocarbons. A transition away from this dependence cannot happen overnight and it cannot happen forcibly because of the fallout: quitting cold turkey is the hardest way to kick a bad habit and not always successful. Maybe we have a better chance of weaning ourselves off oil and gas if we approach the transition in a calmer, less alarmist manner.

By Irina Slav for Oilprice.com

K-Dog

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2021, 10:42:34 pm »
This article makes no sense to me.  It speaks to people who demand we stop all fossil fuel use at once.  A confused response to confused people who don't have their headphones plugged into reality.

Too many people for any combination of renewable energies, and oil is heroin.  Starvation will result when oil fails.  Be it sooner or later it will happen.  No ways will be changed.  Oil pumps will run dry.  When that happens it is Mad Max time as there will be no food.

Phil Potts

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2021, 02:32:09 am »
Ordinarily it would be a silly question. However we have seen the unthinkable already in suddenly stopping air travel consumption of oil and most commuters suddenly stopping. Half the people here are not allowed to travel more than 5km from home and only for a few express purposes, If you get caught further than 5km from home or with a passenger whose ID has a different address, just say you're taking them to get vaxinated and they let u go.

In any case, renewables can't supply enough power for cryptocurrency mining, or the bandwidth to run YouTube. So yes it would be disastrous if the only solid sources of income today stopped because we stop pumping oil. I would have to run a pyramid scheme on all of you.

RE

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2021, 06:44:04 am »
Irina Slav is a regular reporter for OilPrice.com and knows perfectly well the problems with Renewables for coming anywhere CLOSE to providing the necessary energy to power industrial civilization and feed 7.6B people on planet Earth.  But OP is a mainstream organization. not a Peak Oil or Doomer website.  They provide the HOPIUM that if we just extend and pretend long enough, we can avoid the inevitable.  Hopium sells; Doomerism does not.  Like most people also, she can't really come to grips with the idea of Billions dying and a Mad Max world.

One does have to wonder when the mass starvation actually begins how the MSM will report it and who will get the blame?  What kind of response will there be from the federal goobermint be and how long will it last before it collapses?  And of course the CRUCIAL and still unanswerable question:  HOW LONG do we have left before the GREAT DIEOFF of Homo Saps begins?

RE

Phil Potts

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K-Dog

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2021, 02:34:42 pm »
The scenario where we run out is when society collapses so much we cant sink pipe seven miles under the ocean to get the last stuff.  When fracking yield falls so much people can't be fed, then it is over.  Feedbacks of collapse will kick in making a technical society able to process oil impossible.

Colin Campbell once said that in the year 2100 somebody will be pumping oil somewhere.  Maybe so, but not from a well they are able to drill because the infrastructure to get the last drops is long gone by then.  Look at how supply chains have been screwed up by COVID.  Things will only get worse. 

If the rest is so hard to get you can't get it anymore, it is gone.  All we need is enough collapse so you don't get Fritos.



Once that happens the world runs out of spare parts and everything breaks.

American with Fritos  American without Fritos
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 02:43:39 pm by K-Dog »

RE

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2021, 04:41:59 pm »
The scenario where we run out is when society collapses so much we cant sink pipe seven miles under the ocean to get the last stuff. 

The energy cost to pump up from that deep would be more than the pumped oil would contain.  Negative EROEI.  It's a non-starter.

RE

RE

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Re: Energy Errata
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2021, 08:58:52 pm »
The scenario where we run out is when society collapses so much we cant sink pipe seven miles under the ocean to get the last stuff. 

The energy cost to pump up from that deep would be more than the pumped oil would contain.  Negative EROEI.  It's a non-starter.

RE
Upon any energy being invested in a process, the starting point eroei would be  0 / something >0, which is eroei =0

In order for eroei to be <0, energy would need to be invested to cause energy to be destroyed or lost rather than returned. I'm not sure how the logic of this one works. Less energy returned than invested would give an eroei between 0 and 1, which would signify a net loss. Not sure what an eroei<0 might be caused by?

As far as where the final dregs of oil that will be produced on this planet are located, they aren't in deep water at all. They will probably be located in relatively shallow extra heavy deposits in Venezuela, or being mined or steamed out of the ground in Alberta Canada.

You are looking at it as a fraction rather than a subtraction problem.

Let's say you have a deep well, and to pump up the oil you are using still available Natural Gas.  In order to pump up 90 BTUs of Oil, it takes 100 BTUs of NG.  As a fraction, that is .9 EROEI, <1.  As a subtraction, you are -10 BTUs for the process.  It cost you more in Energy than you got back.  You are saying the same thing in both cases, just using a different math function to express it.

RE

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Ida hits Big Oil
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2021, 01:05:30 am »
Ida made a direct hit on Port Fouchon and reports are just starting to filter in from rigs and refineries in the neighborhood of spill, including a miles-long slick from one rig in the GoM.  Sounds like the DeepWater Horizon Deja Vu all over again.

The oil companies are currently clammed up trying to do spin control and lot of spots remain "unreachable", which is kind of hard to believe since they all have Choppers.

Meanwhile power and communications remain out in most of NOLA, and NYC has Sandy-level flooding in the Subways.  Even without Levee failures, Ida may cost more to clean up than Katrina.

Time to REBUILD to maintain our style of living!  Disaster Capitalism at work!

RE